I think the "smooth path" is to stay inside the VS IDE for all this stuff. (Not that a 'VS command prompt' script for the integrated shell wouldn't be useful... I just don't think it's good to steer people towards the command line unless they really want that.)
See e.g. the last minute of this video
for the very basics of scripting (highlighting code in the VS editor and pressing alt-enter). I don't know how you 'discover' that other than by watching videos or reading blogs about F#. There are some blogs and videos on the web about using F# Interactive, but I didn't see anything recent offhand that has a good overview of the end-to-end experience of F# scripts - that would be good content to generate.
Typing "#help" in the interactive shows some commands, like "#load" and "#I" that are useful with scripts. Things like the 'current directory' are just .NET, e.g. System.Environment.SetCurrentDirectory() or whatever the function is.
I think the "smooth path" is to stay inside the VS IDE for all this stuff. (Not that a 'VS command prompt' script for the integrated shell wouldn't be useful... I just don't think it's good to steer people towards the command line unless they really want that.)
It's anti-Unix culture to the extent that F# wants to attract those converts. I've done a lot of open source on Windows, and the Unix command line culture spills over. If you tell me a language can script, I'm going to expect to execute it from a command line somewhere. If I use it for my own apps or system tasks, it's not going to be within a VS IDE. So, I disagree as to what you can steer people towards. People have their needs; a lot of build and development stuff doesn't scale up within IDEs in the real world. Best to just provide for their needs in simple .bat files like all the other VS languages do.Thanks for the link, I'll look at it.
Just curious if you have input on how to make the experience better here. What would go in the bat file (other than SET PATH=%PATH%;FSharpPath)? How would users discover the bat file? How would users learn how to load a script, deal with dirs, etc? I guess possibly just a short README.txt that the installer points at when finished could be good... I haven't installed the CTP in a while to recall what the end-to-end experience is, and I personally have never looked at it from the 'fresh eyes of a scripter' perspective (as I use VS/projects, and I rarely use fsi).
(Ironically, it's possible the experience is better on Mono, since the focus there isn't about IDE support. But that's another thing I personally haven't tried, so I don't know for sure.)
Anyway, am just trying to generate ideas to turn this into actionable feedback for future releases...
Just curious if you have input on how to make the experience better here. What would go in the bat file (other than SET PATH=%PATH%;FSharpPath)? How would users discover the bat file?
The same way it was implemented, and the same way they learned about it, with every other VS language. I'm not asking for something that needs design, thinking, or arguing. I'm asking for something that exists as a standard feature in other VS products, as proven by real world use for over a decade.Is it majorly easy to learn about VS command prompts and how to activate the .bat files? No, it probably requires RTFM head scratching that I did a long time ago. But the shortcuts to the .bat files are always in the Start Menu folders, so people who are command line oriented do have a tendency to find these things fairly quickly without RTFM so much.
Just curious if you have input on how to make the experience better here. What would go in the bat file (other than SET PATH=%PATH%;FSharpPath)? How would users discover the bat file?
The same way it was implemented, and the same way they learned about it, with every other VS language. I'm not asking for something that needs design, thinking, or arguing. I'm asking for something that exists as a standard feature in other VS products, as proven by real world use for over a decade.
Is it majorly easy to learn about VS command prompts and how to activate the .bat files? No, it probably requires RTFM head scratching that I did a long time ago. But the shortcuts to the .bat files are always in the Start Menu folders, so people who are command line oriented do have a tendency to find these things fairly quickly without RTFM so much.
I have to say that I kind of agree with Brian here. The vcvarsall.bat file (this is the name on VS2010) you're referencing seems to exist mostly to set the PATH, INCLUDE and LIB environment variables for C++ development outside of the IDE. So, like Brian, I fail to see how this really applies to F# (or .Net) development. What am I missing here?
Yes the VS Express editions have this stuff. There's a pile of scripting actions taken by C:\Program Files\Microsoft Visual Studio 10.0\Common7\Tools\vsvars32.bat. SDKs that have been integrated with VS are set; the version of the .NET Framework you're using is set; your architecture; your version of VS; lotsa things. Even FSHARPINSTALLDIR is set by this .bat; I think that should end the argument right there. What is desired for F# is a Windows Command Prompt to run scripts that has a correct environment.
Please just have a look at what's already in the full VS product and see if it's a trivial cut-n-paste in your installer for the VS standalone shell version.
Just curious if you have input on how to make the experience better here. What would go in the bat file (other than SET PATH=%PATH%;FSharpPath)? How would users discover the bat file?
The same way it was implemented, and the same way they learned about it, with every other VS language. I'm not asking for something that needs design, thinking, or arguing. I'm asking for something that exists as a standard feature in other VS products, as proven by real world use for over a decade.
Is it majorly easy to learn about VS command prompts and how to activate the .bat files? No, it probably requires RTFM head scratching that I did a long time ago. But the shortcuts to the .bat files are always in the Start Menu folders, so people who are command line oriented do have a tendency to find these things fairly quickly without RTFM so much.
I'm not trying to be thick, but I don't get it. C# Express and VB Express do not have these Start Menu items (or do they?). If you have the full version of VS2010 then you get all this goodness, but I think you don't with Express editions. Which is not to say that we shouldn't maybe also include a 'VS command prompt' menu item with the F#-into-VS-shell anyway, but it sounds like you are drawing a comparison with something else that I am unaware of. How does someone using "C# Express" use the command-line tools? (Indeed, why would they even need 'Express'; the C# compiler is part of the .NET Framework, but the framework doesn't include a 'command prompt with framework paths' to my knowledge, either.)
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For the free F# that works with the VS 2010 integrated shell (is there a shorter way to refer to this setup?) it would be useful to have a .bat file for a Windows command prompt, that sets up appropriate environment variables and whatnot. Other versions of VS have it, typically vsvarsall.bat which calls architecture-specific .bat files. I noticed the need for this when trying to make use of the FSharpSamples. 3 of them are script files which require an execution environment. It was not clear how they would be executed, as one can't simply right-click on them and start a "Debug" session. I did locate a readme for the F# Interactive shell, and thereby discovered how to launch the shell from within the VS IDE. However, I still don't know how to load a script into the shell, or get it to have a convenient current directory. It doesn't take "dir" commands, nor would I expect it to, so it's really not the same as an OS command prompt. I'm sure there's a way, but with poking around learning and whatnot, I'm lazy enough to have taken a break from bothering to figure it out.
A .bat for a Windows command prompt would be good, because it's already familiar to lots of VS developers. They wouldn't have to learn much, maybe how to type "fsi --help" at the command prompt, in order to get those .fsx files rolling. Then, they're seeing FSharpSamples actually working, and get a nice aaaah feeling that things do work, instead of F# just being an invitation to head scratching.
Just a "fit and polish" issue. These small things do help to promote new technologies, be they proprietary or open source.
Does the paid / trial F# have a Windows command prompt .bat file?